4,497
edits
Template talk:Wpd: Difference between revisions
Added opinion
(reason for change back to interwiki link) |
(Added opinion) |
||
| Line 1: | Line 1: | ||
Should this template not open a new window like other external links do? That would be my recommendation anyway. [[User: | Should this template not open a new window like other external links do? That would be my recommendation anyway. [[User:Thomas_Lerman|Thomas Lerman]] 15:03, 13 August 2009 (UTC) | ||
:Technically the template produces an ''{{wpd|InterWiki}} link'' and so it does not open the link in a new window. --[[User: | :Technically the template produces an ''{{wpd|InterWiki}} link'' and so it does not open the link in a new window. --[[User:Cottrells|Steve]] 16:00, 13 August 2009 (UTC) | ||
::Yeah, I realize that it creates a link to another Wiki, but my opinion recommendation still holds. If I am doing research and wanted to check out another Wiki, I would not want to leave the Research Wiki site. I am curious about other people's feelings on this. If after discussion it stays the way it is, I will learn to not use it or right-mouse click to open in a new window. [[User: | ::Yeah, I realize that it creates a link to another Wiki, but my opinion recommendation still holds. If I am doing research and wanted to check out another Wiki, I would not want to leave the Research Wiki site. I am curious about other people's feelings on this. If after discussion it stays the way it is, I will learn to not use it or right-mouse click to open in a new window. [[User:Thomas_Lerman|Thomas Lerman]] 16:07, 13 August 2009 (UTC) P.S. It seems that we want to keep people on the site, not drive them away . . . no matter if it is an interwiki link or not. [[User:Thomas_Lerman|Thomas Lerman]] 18:27, 1 September 2009 (UTC) | ||
::I use right-mouse so often, it is a habit-forming for me now. [[User:Dsammy|Dsammy]] 20:10, 29 September 2009 (UTC) | ::I use right-mouse so often, it is a habit-forming for me now. [[User:Dsammy|Dsammy]] 20:10, 29 September 2009 (UTC) | ||
:::I remembered something... the off page link does NOT always work the way Thomas wanted. It stayed in the same screen rather than open up in in new window. [[User:Dsammy|Dsammy]] 20:26, 29 September 2009 (UTC) | :::I remembered something... the off page link does NOT always work the way Thomas wanted. It stayed in the same screen rather than open up in in new window. [[User:Dsammy|Dsammy]] 20:26, 29 September 2009 (UTC) | ||
::::I am not positive what you mean by "off page link". But if you mean that a link that is defined to open another window does not always do that, I have never seen that and would like to see it (other than if a browser has that kind of setting). [[User: | ::::I am not positive what you mean by "off page link". But if you mean that a link that is defined to open another window does not always do that, I have never seen that and would like to see it (other than if a browser has that kind of setting). [[User:Thomas_Lerman|Password]] 05:12, 30 September 2009 (UTC) | ||
::The community reached verbal consensus on this issue long before we had a MOS page. In fact, I believe it was back when we were still in Plone. The decision was for all links that lead outside FamilySearch to spawn a new window. I don't mind us having the discussion again, but until that initial decision is overturned, all external links (including those from templates) need to spawn a new window. It is confusing to users if we have some external links spawn a new window and others use the current window. In the meantime, the MOS needs to reflect this rule. [[User: | ::The community reached verbal consensus on this issue long before we had a MOS page. In fact, I believe it was back when we were still in Plone. The decision was for all links that lead outside FamilySearch to spawn a new window. I don't mind us having the discussion again, but until that initial decision is overturned, all external links (including those from templates) need to spawn a new window. It is confusing to users if we have some external links spawn a new window and others use the current window. In the meantime, the MOS needs to reflect this rule. [[User:RitcheyMT|Ritcheymt]] 19:43, 6 October 2009 (UTC) | ||
:::I made changes to the template to comply with the links policy, but it was then [[ | :::I made changes to the template to comply with the links policy, but it was then [[User talk:Cottrells#Work_around_possible_for_the_templates|pointed out]] that links to articles with spaces in the title were broken. These could be handled by use of the ''#replace'' function, therefore I have reverted the changes until the [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:StringFunctions StringFunctions] are installed. --[[User:Cottrells|Steve]] 05:43, 14 October 2009 (UTC) | ||
== Case against spawning new windows for external links == | == Case against spawning new windows for external links == | ||
This latest discussion started when I used the InterWiki feature to create this template that can be used to link to articles in Wikipedia. I feel that it has opened up the a bigger discussion about all external links in the wiki, which currently spawn new windows/tabs. I think this is a mistake. It used to be common practise, but for the past 10 years has been seen as poor design and now [http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG/ violates Web Content Accessibility Guidelines]. | This latest discussion started when I used the InterWiki feature to create this template that can be used to link to articles in Wikipedia. I feel that it has opened up the a bigger discussion about all external links in the wiki, which currently spawn new windows/tabs. I think this is a mistake. It used to be common practise, but for the past 10 years has been seen as poor design and now [http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG/ violates Web Content Accessibility Guidelines]. | ||
<blockquote>Opening up new browser windows is like a vacuum cleaner sales person who starts a visit by emptying an ash tray on the customer's carpet. Don't pollute my screen with any more windows, thanks (particularly since current operating systems have miserable window management). If I want a new window, I will open it myself! Designers open new browser windows on the theory that it keeps users on their site. But even disregarding the '''user-hostile message implied in taking over the user's machine''', the strategy is self-defeating since it disables the ''Back'' button which is the normal way users return to previous sites. Users often don't notice that a new window has opened, especially if they are using a small monitor where the windows are maximized to fill up the screen. So a user who tries to return to the origin will be confused by a grayed out ''Back'' button. --{{wpd|Jakob Nielsen (usability consultant)|Jakob Nielsen}}, [http://www.useit.com/alertbox/990530.html The Top Ten Web Design Mistakes of 1999, No 2. Opening New Browser Windows] </blockquote> <blockquote>If your user wants to open the link in a new window, he or she can do so quite easily with most browsers; there is no need to force the issue. It's about leaving the user the freedom to navigate in the way that works best for him or her. -- [http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-validator/2002Apr/0100.html Thanasis Kinias, 21 Apr 2002]</blockquote> | <blockquote>Opening up new browser windows is like a vacuum cleaner sales person who starts a visit by emptying an ash tray on the customer's carpet. Don't pollute my screen with any more windows, thanks (particularly since current operating systems have miserable window management). If I want a new window, I will open it myself! Designers open new browser windows on the theory that it keeps users on their site. But even disregarding the '''user-hostile message implied in taking over the user's machine''', the strategy is self-defeating since it disables the ''Back'' button which is the normal way users return to previous sites. Users often don't notice that a new window has opened, especially if they are using a small monitor where the windows are maximized to fill up the screen. So a user who tries to return to the origin will be confused by a grayed out ''Back'' button. --{{wpd|Jakob Nielsen (usability consultant)|Jakob Nielsen}}, [http://www.useit.com/alertbox/990530.html The Top Ten Web Design Mistakes of 1999, No 2. Opening New Browser Windows] </blockquote><blockquote>If your user wants to open the link in a new window, he or she can do so quite easily with most browsers; there is no need to force the issue. It's about leaving the user the freedom to navigate in the way that works best for him or her. -- [http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-validator/2002Apr/0100.html Thanasis Kinias, 21 Apr 2002]</blockquote> | ||
See also [http://www.webnauts.net/new-window.html Avoid forcing to open in a new window], [http://www.webpronews.com/user/john-britsios John Britsios] and [http://www.webcredible.co.uk/user-friendly-resources/web-usability/new-browser-windows.shtml Beware of opening links in a new window, Neil Turner] --[[User: | See also [http://www.webnauts.net/new-window.html Avoid forcing to open in a new window], [http://www.webpronews.com/user/john-britsios John Britsios] and [http://www.webcredible.co.uk/user-friendly-resources/web-usability/new-browser-windows.shtml Beware of opening links in a new window, Neil Turner] --[[User:Cottrells|Steve]] 13:51, 8 October 2009 (UTC) | ||
---- | ---- | ||
Almost all of those links, to me, look like personal opinions. A quick search produced other person opinions too, such as [http://www.webproworld.com/submit-your-site-review/999-online-shopping-mall-boise-idaho-www-boiseonlinemall-com.html#post6670 Tika Web Development Group] where he says: | Almost all of those links, to me, look like personal opinions. A quick search produced other person opinions too, such as [http://www.webproworld.com/submit-your-site-review/999-online-shopping-mall-boise-idaho-www-boiseonlinemall-com.html#post6670 Tika Web Development Group] where he says: | ||
<blockquote>In fact, any link to an external URL should open a new window. Once they're gone, you risk losing them forever.</blockquote> | <blockquote>In fact, any link to an external URL should open a new window. Once they're gone, you risk losing them forever.</blockquote> | ||
To me, this seems like this is from a purely marketing point of view. | To me, this seems like this is from a purely marketing point of view. | ||
| Line 35: | Line 35: | ||
Just to make sure it is known, I am not against external links opening in the same window. MediaWiki tells the process for "[http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Opening_external_links_in_a_new_window Opening external links in a new window]" and then says | Just to make sure it is known, I am not against external links opening in the same window. MediaWiki tells the process for "[http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Opening_external_links_in_a_new_window Opening external links in a new window]" and then says | ||
<blockquote>Keep in mind that some consider it rude to force new windows on your users.</blockquote> | <blockquote>Keep in mind that some consider it rude to force new windows on your users.</blockquote> | ||
I would propose the following solution: | I would propose the following solution: | ||
| Line 42: | Line 42: | ||
*To meet the guideline I listed as #2 above, have an option in the user's preference to cause external links to either open in the same window or in a new window. I realize that may be some engineering effort. | *To meet the guideline I listed as #2 above, have an option in the user's preference to cause external links to either open in the same window or in a new window. I realize that may be some engineering effort. | ||
Especially if the change to the user's preferences is not an option . . . Maybe a very good way of deciding would be to create a study group of currently non-Wiki and not so "computer literate" genealogists. I would much rather see these type of people (which may be more than 90% of the users) happy than to follow guidelines set by "power users of the Internet". [[User: | Especially if the change to the user's preferences is not an option . . . Maybe a very good way of deciding would be to create a study group of currently non-Wiki and not so "computer literate" genealogists. I would much rather see these type of people (which may be more than 90% of the users) happy than to follow guidelines set by "power users of the Internet". [[User:Thomas_Lerman|Thomas Lerman]] 15:59, 8 October 2009 (UTC) | ||
From what I have seen at the FHL, many researchers open new windows all the times and use them all the times on daily basis, they are more saavy nowadays than before and they do know what they are doing. Constantly switching from their favorite family programs (be it PAF, AQ, Legacy, RootsMagic) to Ancestry, WVR, etc is what I am seeing so there should not be any issues about opening into new windows being an issue. [[User:Dsammy|dsammy]] 16:42, 8 October 2009 (UTC) | From what I have seen at the FHL, many researchers open new windows all the times and use them all the times on daily basis, they are more saavy nowadays than before and they do know what they are doing. Constantly switching from their favorite family programs (be it PAF, AQ, Legacy, RootsMagic) to Ancestry, WVR, etc is what I am seeing so there should not be any issues about opening into new windows being an issue. [[User:Dsammy|dsammy]] 16:42, 8 October 2009 (UTC) | ||
== The path to change == | |||
I like the idea of an interwiki link behaving and looking the same as an external link. I don't like external links that have no icon beside them to indicate that they're going outside. I also think it's time we considered having external links open in the same window rather than spawning a new one. It's like Thomas said, though -- it might be wise to test our user base, which truly is an older, less tech-savvy crowd than the Internet technorati (all of us included in that last). Whatever you guys want to do, though, you might want to involve [[User:JensenFA|Fran Jensen]] in the conversation because she has been assigned as the wiki lead. If users want a change in functionality, the path is users --> Fran --> Jim Greene --> engineers. [[User:RitcheyMT|Ritcheymt]] 19:18, 20 November 2009 (UTC) | |||